Wear A Mask

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 10/30/2020 at 11:45 • Filed to: None

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ibRAD > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 11:56

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Seems our public health unit does not consider cloth/paper masks when doing contact tracing. Makes me wonder how effective they actually are. (both public health and the masks)

I just started working from home again after a nice summer at work.

nerd_racing > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 11:58

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This is well done. I also like this one:

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 11:58

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Unless you’re in Sweden, in that case don’t wear a mask.

DipodomysDeserti > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 11:58

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You want them to contact trace disposable masks?

ibRAD > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 12:01

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What I’m saying is that if you have covid and I spend some time within 6' of you then I would be considered ‘high risk’ even if we were both wearing the masks.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > nerd_racing 10/30/2020 at 12:10

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That’s pretty convincing. 

fintail > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 12:11

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Never seen folks so dramatic over a fucking piece of fabric.

Yep, that about sums up this year and all of the deplorables/contrarian edgelords - I mean brave freedom loving warriors for truth and justice out there. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 12:12

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Face it, unless it’s N95, the research indicates the “kerchief” or “bandanna” thing’s just a bad joke.

smobgirl > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 12:13

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Correct. Masks help reduce the “safe” social distance - without masks I’ ve heard it’s closer to 15-20 feet, outside, though I’m sure there are a bunch of environmental factors at play. So six feet with both people wearing masks is still considered close contact if it meets some time duration standard.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 12:13

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Oddly, they are coming through this better than most parts of Europe.

It’s sad that Italy locked down so completely in March-April, yet is now seeing some of the worse second-wave numbers.

Sweden ends up looking like a pretty good model of how to handle it.  We’ll see how they get through the winter.

HammerheadFistpunch > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 12:18

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I read this the other day watching Legal Eagle. I think it sums up the issue nicely

“But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.”

This was supreme court justice John Harlan writing an opinion on the constitutionality of the mandatory smallpox vaccine in 1905.

It’s a good reminder especially today. I had an argument on a youtube video about off-roading of all things about the difference absolute freedom to choo se and constitutional freedom. I think people assume that one and the other are the same when this is not the case.

I have the right to cho ose to drop my pants and take a dump in the street. That’s my right. However it can be perfectly legal constitutionally to write laws to prevent me from doing so.

People can chose to do whatever they want because freewill exists. In that context, sure you can cho ose not to wear a mask. In the same way I am free to walk into your house and take what I like. Freewill and freedoms afforded to me as part of a society aren’t the same thing.

Im preaching to the choir, I know. Still, It’s an interesting thought exercise.

ttyymmnn > nerd_racing 10/30/2020 at 12:21

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I’m not sure how rigorously scientific that is, but it’s pretty convincing. 

gettingoldercarguy > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 12:21

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ttyymmnn > HammerheadFistpunch 10/30/2020 at 12:23

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Some years ago in the Northeast there was a state supreme court case about an assault weapons ban. One of the justices opined, “We have freedom of speech in this country, but we can’t yell ‘FIRE’ in a crowded movie theater. Why can’t there be similar restraints on other freedoms?”

fintail > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/30/2020 at 12:23

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The truly first world parts of Europe (Italy is debatable in that regard) are still doing pretty well though, better than Sweden, and definitely better than Murka with our lack of federal leadership and mouthing off from the worst POTUS ever and his failing upwards son in law.

nerd_racing > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 12:38

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I find it works well with people who “don’t trust science”

facw > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/30/2020 at 12:38

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OK, we just argued about this last week, but the research doesn’t say that at all. And while bandana are mostly useless (still better than nothing) there’s a hell of a lot of options between a that and an N95, and most of those options do provide a meaningful reduction in exposure (and a bigger reduction in exposing other people to you if you are sick).

facw > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/30/2020 at 12:43

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Sweden has the 5th highest covid deaths per captia in Europe, despite being low density and far from in initial hotspots. They really aren’t doing this well, and should not be your model! The only countries doing worse are Italy and Spain which were blindsided early in the pandemic, and the UK and Belgium who like Sweden, did very little to control the spread initially.

Sweden has 4.5 times as many deaths per capita as Germany and Denmark , 10 times as many as Finland, 11 times as many as Norway, and 17 times as many as Iceland. They are not a model for success.

Long_Voyager94 > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 12:43

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The CDC stated earlier this week that 95% of the US population was wearing masks according to guidelines.
They also determined the majority of infection comes from home/school/workplace, not from bars/restaurants as everyone believes.

Should make one realize if masks are effective as claimed, our numbers should be down greatly with the majority of the population wearing them......

ibRAD > facw 10/30/2020 at 12:48

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the folks holding up sweden as an example also are often the folks that think ‘socialism’ is a cuss word. How do you like those ironies.

ibRAD > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/30/2020 at 12:53

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That’s what I’m starting to think. I probably come across as an ‘anti masker’ which I’m not, but its hard to find good information about what actually works, since nobody seems to know.

N95 sounds like the best bet, but I’m not quite ready to start shaving yet.

Long_Voyager94 > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 12:57

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If we’re being honest, there is no proven data that they work, just a bunch of unproven theories that everyone is living by.

DipodomysDeserti > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 13:02

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Then what’s the point of wearing masks? 

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/30/2020 at 13:07

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I think we’re going to find out that genetics plays a huge role in how this thing affects people. I know several people (including myself) that have been exposed for a s ignificant amount of time, and never contracted covid.

ibRAD > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 13:09

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I guess it makes everyone feel safer. Kind of like how they keep terrorists off the planes because you have to take your shoes off at security.

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 14:36

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What’s interesting is that the “you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater” argument was made in Schneck v. United States and was used to limit constitutionally protected political speech (Schneck was protesting against the draft during WWI). The ruling was partially overturned in the ‘60s.

DipodomysDeserti > HammerheadFistpunch 10/30/2020 at 14:39

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John Harlan II also thought it was A-OK for states to create laws outlawing interracial marriage (Pace v. Alabama) . Early 20th century ideas of personal freedom were a bit iffy.

HammerheadFistpunch > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 14:45

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Let’ s not conflate social progression and constitutional interpretation .

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/30/2020 at 15:06

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There’s plenty of experimental,  strong evidence that masks are good at protecting other people. How good they are at protecting the wearer is, I think, less established.

DipodomysDeserti > HammerheadFistpunch 10/30/2020 at 15:35

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Good luck separating those two.

HammerheadFistpunch > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 15:37

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Tied but not the same thing

DipodomysDeserti > HammerheadFistpunch 10/30/2020 at 15:41

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Unfortunately, no, not the same thing.

Long_Voyager94 > Just Jeepin' 10/30/2020 at 15:48

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Likewise, there’s plenty of strong evidence they don’t, and due to people’s general misuse, can actually make things worse.

Given the CDC just stated 95% of the population is wearing masks in accordance with guidelines and our cases continuing to skyrocket, this seems to suggest the latter is true.

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/30/2020 at 16:02

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I don’t buy 95% and I can’t find any statements by the CDC indicating that’s accurate.

The only ways mask wearing could make things worse: people misusing them and people thinking they’re all they need to do, thus reducing reliance on other measures .

Those are problems that could be solved with education if our leadership weren’t comically and criminally inept.

DipodomysDeserti > ibRAD 10/30/2020 at 16:04

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Yeah, the people holding up socialist Sweden as an example think socialism is a cuss word. Very good analysis there, bud.

ibRAD > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 16:08

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More of an opinion than an analysis, but do you disagree?

DipodomysDeserti > gettingoldercarguy 10/30/2020 at 16:08

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I have to say that if I saw someone walking around in a winter coat and hat in my city, worried about hypothermia, I’d think they were either suffering from an extreme anxiety disorder, or a moron.

gettingoldercarguy > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 16:18

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Impressive take

Long_Voyager94 > Just Jeepin' 10/30/2020 at 16:19

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Sorry, 88.7% as shown by recent data and has been well over 70% since April.

There are breakdowns in here:  https://www.theblaze.com/news/cdc-vast-majority-americans-wearing-masks?

Regardless, even if that number is only 60-70%, that should still cause a decrease in cases not spikes and records as we’re seeing.

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/30/2020 at 16:24

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We expected a spike in the fall. We’re getting a spike in the fall. Masks aren’t a silver bullet, but we don’t know how much worse it could be without them.

DipodomysDeserti > gettingoldercarguy 10/30/2020 at 16:29

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I actually saw a couple walking in full winter gear last January. I figured they got REI gift cards for Christmas, and that they were probably morons.  It was 75F outside.

gettingoldercarguy > DipodomysDeserti 10/30/2020 at 16:30

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My mom basically does that, but she just runs cold.

Long_Voyager94 > Just Jeepin' 10/30/2020 at 16:31

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Likewise, it could be far better. Fact is, there’s no proof either way and plenty of “experts” on both sides, why take one group’s studies as fact and ignore the other?

Isn’t science supposed to be about testing and getting results, even if said results go against what you initially thought?

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/30/2020 at 16:33

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I haven’t seen any studies that indicate masks are harmful when used properly. Please feel free to post them, and I’ll be happy to eat...well, something around here inedible.

Long_Voyager94 > Just Jeepin' 10/30/2020 at 16:43

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In depth test of 4 that were infected, which got retracted but never allowed to be retested with the new parameters......Why? https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342

Loads of links here: https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/?fbclid=IwAR1MWCEPs9ZLuicGUGxNMzsGl72ULcwt46ripfGmzQ3UHFwXRkYDUUz0dnM  All coming to the same types of conclusions.

Outside of those I have saved, everything is buried under the day by day posting of studies ( again, no proven data ) that they do work. Makes me wonder why all the studies that say otherwise keep getting swept under the rug.....

DipodomysDeserti > gettingoldercarguy 10/30/2020 at 16:53

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What’s interesting is that I’m always pretty warm. However, after having my temperature checked every single day for the last three months, I’ve found out that I actually run cold. My average body temp is 95F, even when it was 110+ outside. I was 93F this morning.

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/30/2020 at 16:59

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You’re going to have to do better than citing the AAPS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

Their conclusion on that page is entirely based on the idea that anything less than 100% protection means failure, as seen by this quote, which seems insane to me.

Years of dose response studies indicate that if anything gets through, you will become infected. 

Measles is, to my knowledge, the only common virus that’s that aggressive, that any exposure at all means you’re going to catch it. As others have pointed out, if this virus were as infectious as the measles, we’d be looking at millions dead in the U.S. alone by now .

The AAPS is pushing a political agenda.

Long_Voyager94 > Just Jeepin' 11/01/2020 at 13:20

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BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

And you seriously think those pushing masks are not? You can’t be serious right now.
The good old, “listen to the science”, except when the science disagrees with what I’ve been led to believe, then it’s political. This is why I cannot take anyone grasping masks seriously.